American Public Not in Favor of Trump’s Travel Ban: Int’l Lawyer

“It (the Muslim ban) does not make any logical sense, as you observe,” Paul Wolf, human rights and international lawyer from Denver, said in an interview with the Tasnim News Agency.

“I think Mr. Trump is trying to keep one of his campaign promises, and that is the only purpose.  During his campaign, Mr. Trump put much of his focus on the problems caused by immigrants, either from Mexico, or from Muslim countries. He promised to build a wall on the border with Mexico, and also prevent Muslims from entering the United States.  These are simply racist ideas that Mr. Trump believes helped him get elected. I do not think the American public supports either of these ideas at all. Trump was elected because of a division in the Democratic Party, between supporters of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton,” he added.

Paul Wolf is a human rights lawyer living in Denver in the United States. He represents victims of war crimes, and prisoners held in solitary confinement in maximum security prisons. He has been a frequent guest on different news channels, including Latin American news media. 

Following is the full text of the interview.

Tasnim: On Friday, US President Donald Trump signed an executive order that imposes a 90-day entry ban for citizens of Iran, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Sudan, Libya and Somalia, blocks refugees from Syria indefinitely, and suspends all refugee admissions for 120 days. The move has sparked confusion and anger at major US airports. In fact, Trump's executive order is a Muslim ban. This is while a recent study from Duke University sociologist Charles Kurzman has found that Muslims living in the United State were involved in only one-third of 1 percent of all murders in the country in 2016. What is the aim of such a move? What repercussions will this have?

Wolf: It does not make any logical sense, as you observe.  I think Mr. Trump is trying to keep one of his campaign promises, and that is the only purpose.  During his campaign, Mr. Trump put much of his focus on the problems caused by immigrants, either from Mexico, or from Muslim countries. He promised to build a wall on the border with Mexico, and also prevent Muslims from entering the United States.  These are simply racist ideas that Mr. Trump believes helped him get elected. I do not think the American public supports either of these ideas at all. Trump was elected because of a division in the Democratic Party, between supporters of Bernie Sanders and Hillary Clinton.

The repercussions will be felt by thousands of innocent people who want to visit family members in the United States. They will also be felt by Mr. Trump, who will have a hard time getting anything done if there are continuous protests in the streets. He will also lose the respect of leaders around the world, making it harder for him to achieve his foreign policy objectives. The good news, I guess, is that Mr. Trump can easily change his opinions and back away from some of his extravagant campaign promises.

Tasnim: How do you see this from a legal perspective? Is there any legal procedure whereby the order can be reversed? Kindly explain.
 

Wolf: Hundreds of lawyers have already gone to US airports as volunteers to try to help people detained according to the new policy. The legal procedure is called habeas corpus, which means that the people detained should have a hearing in front of a judge before they are deported.

Unfortunately, it is a basic principle of immigration law that no one has a legal right to a visa. The way our government works, the President makes these decisions. Congress does not. The courts may also become involved, but since the travelers do not have a right to a visa, I am not sure that the courts can help them. Travelers from the seven listed countries can expect to be detained in a holding cell, and then returned to wherever they came from. 

Tasnim: Do you believe that the move is against the US Constitution and international law? Kindly explain.

Wolf: Yes, the US Constitution provides for equal protection of the laws to everyone, regardless of their religion or national origin. It also provides for due process of law, which should allow people to challenge the deportations in court. Unfortunately, our courts do not apply our constitutional rights to citizens of other countries who are not in the United States.

That is why there may be a difference in how people trying to enter the US are treated, compared to people who are already here. And also, in how US citizens are treated, compared to people who have work visas or permanent resident status. 

The United States does have obligations under the Refugee Convention of 1951. Parties to the treaty have promised to protect refugees that are already in their territory, and not to discriminate against them. It does not obligate any country to take in refugees. Also, treaties cannot be enforced directly in court. So although this treaty explains how refugees should be treated, it is not something the travelers could really use in their habeas corpus petitions. Unfortunately, I do not think that the travelers have legal arguments that can prevent their deportation.

Tasnim: As you know, Trump has excluded Saudi Arabia and certain Persian Gulf states in his order. Back in July 2016, the US government released 28 pages of a congressional report on the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks, which show the Saudi government may have had a hand in the attacks. “While in the United States, some of the September 11 hijackers were in contact with, and received support or assistance from, individuals who may be connected to the Saudi Government…there is information, primarily from FBI sources, that at least two of those individuals were alleged by some to be Saudi intelligence officers,” reads part of the report. What is your take on this?

Wolf: The list of banned countries makes no sense. It is a list of places the US has recently attacked, creating refugee problems. Why is Iran on the list? Are there Iranian refugees trying to enter the US? Do terrorist groups control parts of Iran, who want to attack the US? Of course not. If you want to include Saudi Arabia, you could also include Germany, where the September 11, 2001 attacks were actually planned. 

The first problem is that Mr. Trump wants to define "Islamic terrorism" to suit his particular foreign policy goals. For reasons no one fully understands, Mr. Trump likes Russia but dislikes China and Iran. So the Iranian nuclear program puts Iran on the same list as Syria and Iraq - where Iranians are fighting ISIS alongside the US. I am not sure why Mr. Trump considers Iran to be our adversary, or China. I hope that the Iranians are able to engage with the Trump administration and find out what they want. Maybe I am an optimist, but do not see any real reason why Iran and the US can't have good relations.